Karl Gotch and Jake Shannon Chat (06/01/05) Part One

Jake Shannon - July 26, 2017
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KG: Hello.

JS: Yes, Mr. Gotch, please.

KG: You got him.

JS: Hey, this is Jake.

KG: Hello, Jakob.

JS: How are you?

KG: Okay. Hey, I just got your two things; you know, two tapes?

JS: Okay.

KG: But I haven't looked at them yet. I told you that I have most of the tapes of Fujiwara. I remember, I told you that, huh?

JS: Yes, yes. You told me that. I just wanted you to check them out to make sure that they were the same ones.

KG: Yes. Well, the right opponent is not exact, because you mentioned that guy, Sayama?

JS: Yes.

KG: He was a… What do you call? He tried to take profits from everything. You know?

JS: Oh, really?

KG: Yeah. He'd try to get in touch and then turn it way around like he did something.

JS: Okay.

KG: He was good for whoever was making shit out of rice. You know, all those guys, they all get in, like Inoki and [Saito]. Inoki never trained with me. Same with Sakaguchi. He wouldn't come around. Inoki came here. He was trained, I think, by [Oki Shinkina]. Him and that Korean guy who was his partner. They both started with [Oki Shinkina].

JS: I see. But Fujiwara worked out with those guys, though. I know they didn't work out with you, but I think that Fujiwara was…

KG: They came to the gym. Then later on, he worked out with him because working out or teaching -- it's a big difference, right?

JS: Right, totally.

KG: I was the guy that was coaching him. He don't know what to do. Get him through the exercises. Oh, yeah. That one tape is really good. You know, the one from India?

JS: Oh, yes. It's good, huh?

KG: I've been looking at it several times and now that buddy of mine, Malenko's son, Joe…

JS: Yes.

KG: He's going to make a copy of it for him.

JS: Oh, cool.

KG: You know it was the only place. I remember I told you I couldn't go to India because I didn't belong to the British Empire.

JS: Right.

KG: So, they sent me everything, but I would have been stuck if I had flown over there. The only thing I would [get] was a flight to Karachi and they would have sent me back, because I couldn't. But they wanted me really bad. But being that I didn't belong to the British Empire, I couldn't get in. I couldn't get no visa.

JS: Well, hey. Let me know if you want, and can send your friend Joe a copy of that.

KG: I already gave them to him.

JS: Oh, you did? Okay.

KG: Why you going to make a copy?

JS: Oh, okay.

KG: I'm glad you know it. I didn't want to ask you that. Because he said he's got other things. Oh, I don't know. I just got a video player. You know what I mean?

JS: Yeah.

KG: He said he's got things now. It's like on a circle like we have music on? You know?

JS: Yeah, the DVD.

KG: Yeah, I don't know. I never even knew about that. Because he's well-to-do.

JS: Oh, is he?

KG: Oh, yeah. He makes a lot of money.

JS: So, is he wrestling?

KG: No, he's in real estate. He just got partially retired because he was in on a million-dollar deal with that thing with Trump on the Towers?

JS: Oh, my God.

KG: Yeah. The thing that he had the apartment -- he sold that with another deal and he got from that guy the big house that they got. You know, like kind of a chateau.

JS: Holy smokes.

KG: Oh, yeah. He's all right there. He's not hurting. It's good for that, because when I know him, when he started, he didn't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out. But he was always very close with me. I know him from when he was a little boy six years old.

JS: Oh, okay. Well, that's good.

KG: He looks at me like his old man is dead and everything. He looks at me like I'm his father.

JS: Ah! So, you guys were always pretty close.

KG: Yeah. You know the car that was stolen from me? He had it all washed and done up. I had it checked, but he sent a guy over. Boy, it looks like brand new. The other thing he's got to do is through the time, the covering inside came loose a little bit, so I've got to get that glued again, so I'm all set.

JS: Wow.

KG: But with the money that one Jap got out of me, boy, I wish I could get my hands on that bastard.

JS: What happened?

KG: Well, I couldn't get nobody to fix my teeth.

JS: Yeah, I remember when you had them pulled.

KG: That was an implant. And they came loose. I had them already for many, many years -- I think about 30 or 35 years. So they had to put that other thing in, and I couldn't get nowhere. And nobody would fix them. So then I found a Dr. Monteleone. Now he said when he fix that thing up, it's like a new car with old tires, so I have to get the dentures. That's the one thing in life that I fear, is to get dentures made.

JS: Why?

KG: We call that in German [wriggle reflex] -- like a strangler reflex where they put that thing in my mouth? You know, to protect that [measurement]?

JS: Yeah.

KG: And I look like… And the water run out of my mouth and I'm [makes gurgling sound].

JS: I know what you're saying. Gagging?

KG: Yeah. Oh, brother. It's murder on me. Pulling them out? That's something. I had them all pulled out by hand.

JS: Back in the day.

KG: They worked on it for three hours with six Japs, because they had to replace… His arm got tired, and the next one kept trying. They all said I was crazy and I was in the gym the next day, too.

JS: Yes, Fujiwara told me that. That was the story. I asked him to tell me a good story about you and he said that you got all your teeth pulled and then you showed up the next day at the gym.

KG: And like I told you. There was six dentists because, after all, they pulled all the teeth at one time.

JS: Wow.

KG: So, he stood there. He was shitting himself.

JS: Let me ask you something. You mentioned that the U.S. troops came and liberated you from that camp…

KG: Yeah.

JS: So, is your hip injury from that time period?

KG: Oh, no. You know the cartilage inside of the bones? Where your bone turn in your hip? You know, the disc? The upper thigh bone? That cartilage was worn out.

JS: Ah.

KG: And the left one was completely gone and the other one was almost gone, too, so instead of doing one and then the other, I said, "Do both of them at once." I've got to come back anyway.

JS: Oh, my God.

KG: Jesus Christ.

JS: You did it just like your teeth, huh?

KG: Yeah, but when you have to get up, or when I have to lay down… You know getting up… Once I was up, I was okay, but when you lay flat, to get up in the sitting position in order to stand up, or when you get in the sitting position to lay down in the bed, oh, Christ almighty.

JS: Is it still like that now?

KG: No, no. It's all right, now. I can't dance no tarantella. I'm limited in my workouts and everything. That's why this thing that I tell you -- that Joe is having the books copied.

JS: Yes.

KG: From English to German, but he has many more books that I didn't know. So, I do that. It's like Muscle Control.

JS: The Maxick…

KG: Or body development through will power. But he's got other books, too. He's got one that [Mark DeSalco] wrote. They were within that time in England. You know, Max is a German.

JS: Yes.

KG: So, in German, the name, that grows, because his name is Maxick. You understand?

JS: Yes.

KG: They cut the "s" out and made them all one name. Maxick. Because if he had to give an exhibition or a demonstration somewhere, or if you write a book, you'd say, "This is a book written by Mr. Sick."

JS: Right.

KG: Or Max Sick.

JS: Right. "How to Be Healthy," by Mr. Sick.

KG: That fit like a prick in a piss pot, right?

JS: Right. The meaning of the word in English is totally different.

KG: Yes, but in German… Because if you say "sick," you're sick and [krank]. Are you sick?

JS: Ah.

KG: That's completely different, right?

JS: Right.

KG: If you're sick, you're just cockeyed.

JS: That's pretty ironic.

KG: Well, I can help myself in a few languages, but I don't speak them perfect.

JS: You speak Japanese pretty good, too, right?

KG: Can't help myself in the gym. But the reason for that is I don't know about Japanese, too. There's only one language in the world with only one form. That's English.

JS: What do you mean?

KG: You've got only one form -- "you." The friendly or the polite form is the same.

JS: Oh, I see; whereas…

KG: There's nothing in the other language.

JS: Yeah.

KG: It's like saying, "I spoke," in another language. "I speak" to you -- that I don't know. Or a woman. You can't address her on a friendly term. You've got to use the polite form to introduce her or talk to her. Otherwise they say, "Where the hell does this guy come from? Who does he think he is?"

JS: Wow.

KG: That's why I say I am all right, but I picked it up. I never went to school for those things. I just learned them by myself.

JS: Yeah.

KG: [And write them too.]

JS: A lot of the important things in life you don't really need to go to school for, anyway.

KG: No. It's mind over matter. And when you can't understand each other's language, that's it. There's more trust, because you think to the guy in his own thing. Like when I was in Japan, American wrestlers had nothing but trouble with them. I went there, and I told you, maybe, right?

JS: You what?

KG: Did I tell you about it?

JS: I've heard a story -- but I don't know if it's true or not -- about Ken Shamrock coming over? Do you know that guy?

KG: Oh, yeah. He's an asshole. He doesn't know his elbow from his asshole. You know, you're right. I'm not saying that he can't wrestle. The only thing he can wrestle is a tough steak. All those guys… You see wrestling -- it's like mathematics. Wrestling is a game of life. You use your ideas with it. You don't use power. Power is useless. No matter how strong you are, they say wrestling is a sport that's worthless. That's not true. I can give you a guy in good shape and you can be the strongest weightlifter in the world. You may block, and try to pull and tuck, but between three and five minutes, your tongue be hanging out of your asshole and the guy will be turning everywhere but loose. That's wrestling today.

JS: Yeah.

KG: The secret of wrestling is you look at a man. You see his line of balance between his feet, and his point of gravity from the rear middle of his hip down to the center of that point of balance. Then only he uses his leverage and leverage only work if you put the fulcrum right. Because if you ain't got the fulcrum right, your leverage is useless. So, that's why it's what you've got between your ears, not what's between the elbow and the shoulder.

JS: Did you ever see Funaki wrestle?

KG: Well, he learned from me.

JS: Okay. So, he actually learned directly from you.

KG: Yeah. He started as a young boy. He came. Funaki. Fujiwara. Suzuki. Suzuki was a tough bastard.

JS: Really?

KG: He was not the biggest sumo. Thank God for that. He was nearly half the size, because you had what you call… You know, you got guts and then you got once in a blue moon, the guy that comes and has got the killer instinct. He don't care what or who. And he'll hurt you, for sure; but if you hurt him, he don't care. That's fine and dandy, but watch out because he be coming all the time. And that was him.

JS: Wow. So Suzuki was really good, huh?

KG: Yes, of all the guys, he was the only one that had that. Fujiwara was tough, but he didn't have the killer instinct like Suzuki. Even when he was working out with the other guys. I used to tell him, "Hey. It's only a workout. Try to figure things out." No, no, no, no. When he went there, he went like his life depended on it. Boy, he was really a hard man. But he was really close to me. He liked me very much, but in that department, you couldn't tell him nothing. He went always 110%. And no matter what they did to him, he never complained or nothing, but boy, he came back for more.

JS: Wow. And what was Funaki like?

KG: Funaki was all right. He was not too bad, but later on he changed because they all play the game. You remember that guy that came over from Brazil?

JS: Yeah.

KG: Those brothers?

JS: Yes, Rickson?

KG: Yeah. They were nothing. But they lost to those guys to get them up. Because later on, you saw it in the later comeback. He got beat by everybody, and that was the end of him.

JS: Right.

KG: You don't hear from him no more.

JS: Right, exactly.

KG: When I saw him the first time, I said, "What the hell is going on? You guys are selling… You've got the body and soul." I didn't write that. That was before my hip operation. It was before my book was published. I said, "You know what I'll do? I'm an old man. I'll tie one leg and one arm behind my back and I'll bet he couldn't even pull my dick off my belly." He doesn't even know the sleeper or a real strangle hold -- the front of the head -- which is not allowed. They're the only thing that's not allowed. And then an armbar.

JS: Oh, man. Where do you come up with these phrases?

KG: Well, I come from the worst. From the waterfront. They used the nickname the "skip squatter." Like skippers, you know? And that's where I was born and grew up.

JS: Oh, it's too funny. That's too funny.

KG: I was a king there, in that part of town.

JS: That other one that you told me the other day, where they thought the sun shone out of your asshole…

KG: Oh, yes. You like that, too? Shit, that's nothing. That's just normal conversation for us.

JS: Oh, man, that's funny. That's funny. I may have to start using those and incorporate that into my language.

KG: Oh, but you know… I don't think it would go over too good.

JS: Yeah, especially not at the bank.

KG: No. Or anyplace else here, too, because when I talk to people, they look at me like I'm coming from the moon. But for me, it's all right, because I got nothing to lose. You understand what I mean?

JS: Yeah.

KG: But not for you. If you're in that business, you have to talk with people. And especially in the bank, if you have an argument with a guy and you say, "Will you look at my ass and see if there's still some cakes in the window?"

JS: He was looking at your ass like cakes in the window?

KG: No. I said, "Look at my ass. I see there's still some cakes in the shopping window."

JS: Oh, man. That's too funny. I think we should put you on stage, like a stand-up comedian.

KG: Hell, no.

JS: Oh, yeah.

KG: I'm not too funny.

JS: I think it's hilarious.

KG: It's just in talk. I had to watch myself, all the time, when I gave interviews, too, you know? Like when they interviewed me on television about a match and this and that? I had to watch myself close, because I didn't want to slam people.

JS: That's too funny. Well, I just wanted to touch base with you. Have you had your cigar and your wine today?

KG: Yes, I'm smoking a cigar and I'm having a glass of wine. It's that time in the evening. I got two meals, so I smoke two cigars, because I got to go for the new dentures. I found it now, you know? So, I have to change that, anyway. That's the only thing, like you say. Gagging. We say [wriggle reflex]. That's strangler's reflex. You know it's the same thing, right?

JS: Yes, same thing.

KG: Yes, but it's just in another way that they get another name for it. But yes, that's it. I've got to go to that thing tomorrow. I've got to go see that denture -- not the dentist -- the dentist not mine. They don't tell you. The one I went to -- the guy that took the thing out, they put the other implant in. You know, the other one?

JS: Mm-hmm.

KG: Because the other one was in for 35 years and the gums came all loose. They all split up. So, then they have to get the bone down. So, his name is Monteleone. I said, "Monteleone?" He said, "No, Italian." I said, "No. Monteleone as in French." Because I understand Italian, but we say, Lion of the Munt, the lion of Montagne. You know what I'm saying? Monteleone. Like you say first lion of the mountains.

JS: Ah.

KG: So, now the other one I get [Carreono]. So, I'm surrounded by spaghetti dentists.

JS: Spaghetti, huh? Well, hopefully they're good at dentures and stuff.

KG: Oh, yes. The one guy that did the job and the other one -- I think so, because the guy that did the other ones, that I still got parts of them in, his name was Castellano.

JS: Oh, wow. I see.

KG: But he's retired.

JS: What happened with that Furey guy? I see him using your name everywhere on the Internet.

KG: Well, he should not, because I told him to cut that out, but I have no way to catch him because I told him. "You use my name, you're not going to be happy because I'm going to look you up."

JS: Yeah.

KG: Because he's nothing. He's another one… He's like Sayama. He uses all kinds of things. I heard he's got now exercises to improve your sex life.

JS: Ugh.

KG: I went, "What kind of shit is that?"

JS: Yeah. He's all about the money.

KG: Yeah. They call him [Dollars Furey]. The nickname. [Dollar Sign Furey] It was over in a hurry. I'm not as gullible as he is.

JS: What did he do? He came and worked out with you a couple of times?

KG: Nah. He came one time and he found me where I was living, and he asked for an interview…

JS: Ah…

KG: I said, "No. I don't do that."

JS: Right.

KG: He was having a hard time, because he had just gotten out of the thing, like from college. Then he went to China and he was married to a Chinese woman. A nice girl. And he has a little boy, a baby boy. So, I felt sorry for him. So, there we were, kindness and politeness for weakness, the bastard. He took advantage of me. So, we made a kind of a thing, a tape. A tape that I had -- and he made it commercial. He put a thing and flashed it up a little bit. I had an old tape and the tape I had made.

I had a friend that knew how to take the tape. That thing -- he was Italian, too. He worked out with me - [Theodore Rotolo] Those are the two that still come to me -- Malenko's son and the other guy, Teddy. And Tom, that guy from Virginia. When you did the exercises? I only wanted that. Shortly after that, the operation. It's all right. Talk is cheap, but I don't have the money to buy the whiskey. If I tell you this, this, and this, and you say, "Oh, yeah," but I cannot do it and you say, "Oh, yeah…" You can say what you want, but if you have something to see it, the proof is there.

JS: So, he never actually did any of the exercises or anything…

KG: Oh, no. He couldn't. He was just a fat slob.

JS: Yeah.

KG: And he come from a place where they used to have good wrestlers in the States. Iowa. He's from Iowa. And they have fairly good… Iowa. Nebraska. And then around Minnesota, too. They get fairly good amateurs, right? Well, look. In Japan, I got so many friends, but I got fucked by a Jap, right?

JS: Yeah.

KG: So, there you are. So, he's one of those Iowans where the [base] is made out of shit.

JS: Yeah. I'm definitely trying to steer clear of that guy. He sounds like bad news.

KG: He tries here and there to make a buck because he never worked in his life. You know, they're too lazy to work, but they sure as hell know how to make shit out of people. So when he sold those tapes, he took 40%.

JS: Wow.

KG: I said, "What the hell? I showed it you for free." He said, "Yeah. I couldn't do it for less." I said, "It's okay. You don't have to do nothing anymore. Don't even use my name and get the fuck out of here." But I have to pay the taxes on it, you understand?

JS: Wow.

KG: Yeah. They're very clever, because when it comes to that, they don't know nothing either. Everything is for you, then.

JS: Yeah, that's a shame.

KG: Well, what do you want? Win some, lose some.

JS: Yeah. It's so weird. That whole culture is so weird. All these guys want to talk all this stuff like they're tough, but nobody will actually get out on the mat.

KG: That's the thing, you see? You know why they used to call me the God of Wrestling in Japan?

JS: Huh?

KG: I went everywhere. In Japan, Wrestling is real big. Like they didn't know about pro, but they had real good amateur wrestlers. Now, lately, they don't have no more Olympic champions in Wrestling or in gymnastics, but before they had them all. They even had one guy in the welterweight and he was a friend of mine. He's gone now, because he quit and he was drinking then. Because he worked for a brewery and he became like an alcoholic and he kicked the bucket.

JS: Oh, no!

KG: But his name was Watanabe. One time the Japs went over with the team and at the time, the toughest countries were Turkey, Iran, and Russia. So, they sent the team over there and they had a match, a country meet (one that meets the other). The U.S. against Turkey. And he beat the Turks. So, he went to the thing. They beat, but some of them got beat, but he got in on the tour. He beat his opponent in Turkey, his opponent in Iran.

Now they had five matches all over Russia. In Russia at that time, they had the best of the best. They tried to throw everything they had against him in those five matches -- every time he had a different opponent. And one was like a world beater. He snuffed them up, all five of them. He came back 0-7. Yeah, he was a guy.

JS: Wow.

KG: Oh, yeah. From all the Japs that we ever had -- the one who went to Turkey, they won the Olympic title twice. He was the only one they won twice, because the Japs, when they win, they usually bow out because that's their habit, their culture. They don't want to lose face when they've got something.

JS: Right.

KG: But [Uratake] went twice. The second time, he hurt his elbow bad. I went everywhere. I went in the dojos. I went in the colleges. Anywhere you want. I even tried that with some Sumo guys.

JS: What was that like?

KG: Well, they're different. Don't underestimate them. They look like nothing because they look like big, fat guys. They're strong. They're very strong, they're very fast, very agile; but they have no endurance. But that belly is made to get that point of gravity real low to the ground…

JS: Ah…

KG: …if they touch anything, there's this 3-meter circle that they're in, and that circle, that bag of rice that are buried, that it's just the rim sticks up, and once they go outside that rim, that circle of three meters, or they touch the floor with anything else but a slap in the face, even if their feet roll over, that's it. They lost.

JS: Yeah.

KG: Their rules are very simple. There's about 48 holds altogether. But they've got tremendous balance, too. Jesus Chris.

JS: You know, it's interesting. You know who FILA is, right? The international Wrestling body.

KG: They're international. [Federation Internationale des Luttes Associees] They say in French, Organization International of Wrestlers Amateurs.

JS: Okay. LUTTE, right?

KG: Yes.

JS: They're trying to create a new form of wrestling. I mean, no wrestling is new, but a new sport and they're calling it Beach Wrestling.

KG: Beach Wrestling?

JS: And it's almost the exact same rules as Sumo. I think it's like a 20-meter circle or something. I don't know exactly what it is, but it's a big circle in the sand. Then you have to try to either throw the guy or push him out and that's how you win.

KG: But you see, they're desperate. They're doing old things. The reason why they killed Wrestling is when Wrestling was really booming after the war -- all over the world and in Europe too -- but they killed it. And you know who killed it?

JS: Huh?

KG: The guy. What do you call that? The leaders. You know, when you got the meeting and all those guys are there. You know what I mean, huh? That sit around the table?

JS: Yeah, like a committee.

KG: The committee, you got it. And all those guys, they always change the rules and they change the time limit and everything. And none of those mother fuckers had ever been in the ring.

JS: Yeah.

KG: They had never stepped one foot inside the ropes. So, they tell you what to do. That's how they killed it. When you get like three minutes, or three times two minutes and this, that's bullshit.

JS: Yeah. That's not enough time.

KG: The best thing is, if you want to keep it short and sweet, is to make it twelve minutes. Like six, two. You know, six, two, two, and two. Okay.

JS: Okay.

KG: If you want to get like, say, and stand up. Down, down. In the last two minutes, up. Then at least you've got twelve minutes That's short enough to get a good fight…

JS: Yeah…

KG: …and still give you time to do what you need to do.

JS: Yeah, that's interesting. So, you're saying there'd be six two-minute periods.

KG: Yeah.

JS: Yeah, that's interesting.

KG: There's be only one period of six. Like six minutes, two minutes, two minutes, and two minutes.

JS: Oh, I see.

KG: Altogether, twelve.

JS: So, the first one is six minutes and then the rest are broken up into two minutes.

KG: Or otherwise, if you've got six minutes and you're even, then you can choose. If you want to get each one done back there, you know what it is. And then the last minute up. Or, you can continue on, straight up and you can stand. Standing up.

JS: That's a cool idea.

KG: That's better than… Well, in my time, it was 20 minutes and 15 minutes.

JS: Wow.

KG: And before that, in the olden [days], when I was just a boy, when they started, they wrestled until there was a decision.

JS: Wow.

KG: I know about one match that was over an hour.

JS: Oh, my God.

KG: And then you had the two things. Although, I'm not too crazy about Greco. It's good, but Greco is more strength and agility. But it's not as spectacular because you can only take from the waist up; and if you've got a strong guy and he doesn't want to do… Because you've got two guys that move and that are really agile that can use a bridge …. Because as you say in that tape, the most important thing for wrestling is bridging, right?

JS: Yes.

KG: Now, they're bridging [not like the Hindus]. That's nothing compared how to actual bridging.

JS: What do you mean? How is it different?

KG: Well, the forms are very different. They fall and they go over, right?

JS: Yes. And it seems like it's pretty loose…

KG: Yeah, but you see. If you stand… Like with me and my voice, they fall first, they fall and they stand in a bridge. They touch with the nose. The forehead…

JS: Yeah…

KG: And just over -- stay for three minutes. Then, you stand up. You fall back and your hands on the floor and your head, and you kick over with your left and with your right foot 10 times. Then you kick over. You do the same thing with your head alone. Then you do the same thing on your hands alone. Then you do -- that's 30, already, that you would roll over. Then you go. You fall in a bridge, on your hands. Knees. You kick over, up and you stand up. Then you go down. You fall back on your forehead so you've got your legs bouncing back in the bridge and get over like that.

JS: Wow.

KG: Oh, yeah.

JS: Wow.

KG: Those boys that I trained -- they could bridge.

JS: Wow. God. There's just nobody that teaches like that anymore.

KG: No, well, but that's the trouble with it, see? You still could find boys, but now it's a very hard sport, and nobody likes it. You understand? These people -- the sport -- but this peek-a-boo shit that you see on the tape from New York -- there was a guy taking those goofy bumps.

JS: Yeah.

KG: So, there you are. So, you don't get that. And on the other hand, in America, it used to be the country of Wrestling. They had the best wrestlers here. And the best professionals, too. They had some tough guys here. Now, all you've got is three ball games: basketball, baseball, and football. And outside of that, there's nothing.

JS: Yeah. Boxing isn't even very popular anymore.

KG: No, because it's too hard and nobody's hungry enough.

JS: See, in the olden days, when times were tough, the best fighters were in the States. The best wrestlers, too. Now, the only place you got is u some small boys that come over like from the Latin country. Like from Mexico. Cuba. They come. But once they're here for a little while and they grow fat on the land, they lose a lot of their [priorities], too. Living is too easy here. And that's no good for a hard sport. If you do a fighter's sport, you've got to live like a fighter. If you don't do that, you ain't going to be losing.

JS: That's interesting.

KG: You know what you always say about rent? I think I would very much caution to play even a script of what I have now. With what I have now, I would have made a lot of enemies in no time flat. I would have just said, "Shoot that son of a bitch."

JS: That's too funny. All right, well, I just wanted to check in with you.

KG: Yeah. I'll look at those two tapes and then I'll let you know about them. I think I got already got them.

JS: I think you've seen them.

KG: Yeah, sure.

JS: So, you probably know what's on there. I'm actually going to be working on a couple of other tapes, and I'll send them out to you. You can take a look and tell me what you think.

KG: The one tape was very good, that you got me.

JS: The Indian?

KG: Yeah. I like the old type. The old type of training.

JS: Yeah.

KG: You know the old type of training? It's strictly for Wrestling. There is not one straight move in it. Everything goes in a circle. Did you notice?

JS: Right.

KG: And Wrestling is always in a circle. There's nothing right. Boom, and you go straight -- nothing. Even if you go for a leg dive, you go in that leg, but you twist that. If you go straight in, the guy can block you like nothing.

JS: Exactly. You have to circle.

KG: Yes. That is the way to do it. And then once you get the leg up, you don't trip or stay back. You just lean on him. Lean on his leg that it is straight. Now you know he's got his leg that he still stands on and he got your two legs. He's got legs and you've got his right leg. He's got his left leg. He's got your right leg and left leg to stand on. Now, you just switch your right leg below, while you're leaning in on his upper thigh and the knee, and you don't have to trip him. He goes down like a bag of shit.

JS: I'll have to try that.

KG: But you know, like I said, balance and timing and the leverage and where you put the fulcrum. That's Wrestling. Wrestling is like mathematics.

JS: Yes. It's all physics.

KG: It's not easy, and you watch. And the one that is the most important thing is your reflexes. If you've got good reflexes, you've got it. Some boys, they've got it like they're born with it. But there's a way to get that easy. It's a sport that was done before in England, but from England it came here. In England, they used to call it Fives and here you call it handball, in a court. You know what I mean, huh?

JS: Yes.

KG: See, you play with your left and your right hand -- not one-handed. Left and right hand. And you've got to move. Move all the time. Because you slap that ball in the wall. Now, if you get like in a corner, you've got to be right moving in the front because if it bounce more than one time, you're lost.

Now, if you go and you hit it hard -- hit it off the wall -- you know it come from the front wall all the way to the back. It hits the back wall. Now you've got to scoop it before it hits the wall, the ground, because it touches two times, otherwise. That's great. It's good for your conditioning and terrific for your reflexes. You want to be a wrestler -- play handball. It's a must.

JS: That's a good tip, because there's actually handball courts right out in front of my house here.

KG: Well, do that. But, like you've got a wall there to play off, on the back, or is it just an open court?

JS: No, it's an open court. Like there's no glass back wall, or anything.

KG: Well, that's not so good as the other one. The other one is even better.

JS: With a back wall?

KG: Yes. A court. You know what I mean, huh? A little court. Like close the door, because then you can't pick it from the [back wall too].

JS: See, this one has the side walls and the front wall, but no back wall.

KG: It is just a little, short side wall on the side. That's an open court, right?

JS: No, no. It's covered, too. There's a top. Have you ever been to Venice Beach in California?

KG: No.

JS: It's probably very similar if there's outdoor handball courts there in Florida. But it's concrete.

KG: I've seen it when I was going around the states.

JS: Yes.

KG: I tried it for a little while, but I never was long enough in a place. I wanted to learn it, but I never had the chance because I was traveling all the time. Like nighttime -- I was on the road. Then I had to wrestle in the morning. Or if I didn't have the time and was on the road, I used to work out before my match in the dressing room. They were looking at me. They said, "This son of a bitch. He's doing [hard] labor." Because what the hell and then you go. The wrestling is okay there for cooling down. [You guys, fuck off]

JS: That's funny. Well, I'm going to try that now that you mentioned that, because I've heard of other people. Lou Thesz was really into the whole handball thing, too.

KG: Well, that's all he did. But Lou Thesz -- the only thing he had. He played handball all the time. It was to keep himself in shape. And he did some light weights, because that's all he had.

JS: Yes. The look.

KG: He looked pretty good, but when it came wrestling, well. I told him one time. I said, "If it took one hold to go around the world, you couldn't get across the street."

JS: Well, he always seems to do that weird Double Wrist Lock. Then he transitions into like a Head Scissor kind of thing. Or the Stepover Toe Hold. That was like every single match.

KG: Yeah. When he was there, I worked out with him. Like another thing, too. There was a guy. He said, "Man, alive. He worked out with me. He was just up my ankles. I hardly know you got him. You hurt me like a bastard. How come?" So, he was a nice guy. I said, "I don't pull on your goddamned foot, you dumb cock." He says, "No?" So, I barred his face with my left forearm and I pulled his nearby foot up and you put it on an angle so that you pull it to his ass. So, he slipped on his side. So, I held his foot up and just pressed it out and put my knee on his ankle.

JS: Right.

KG: You don't put it down and he pull it up. No. You hold it up and you press down. That's where you get the leverage.

JS: Interesting.

KG: Help shit lay around. I said, "You guys tried to go to Broadway and you go around Hoboken before you go there. That's not it."

JS: So you actually hold it up and then put your knee on it.

KG: Yeah. Well, when the position comes, by the time I switch them, this time already you're dead. So by just having… It's just a slight thing you've got to do. Say like a Toehold. I slip the guy down and he's on all fours. My left arm goes in on his left leg.

JS: Yeah.

KG: I slipped in him between, and I got his toes from his left foot. Now I put my right hand on my left wrist and I just push down on his ankle. I made a lot of Carusos that way. They really hit that high C. They said Caruso broke a chandelier. They broke the goddamned windows and everything.

JS: Right -- with their screaming, uh? That's funny. Well, hopefully I'm going to be getting out there to Florida one of these days pretty soon. Hopefully in the next couple of months.

KG: I hope so. Let me know in advance. I just got to go to that doctor now, and the thing for that dentist and then I've got to go every two or three months for a check-up to see what it is for high blood pressure. You know the old…

JS: Sure. Hypertension.

KG: That's just a checkup that they do from Humana.

JS: Okay.

KG: You know how it is with those old clowns? They used to be good, but nobody gives a dime for yesterday's newspaper.

JS: Aw! That's not true. Well, I understand what you're saying.

KG: Because they're older than that because that's old news.

JS: Right, right.

KG: Don't [matter] no more.

JS: I understand. You just make sure that your dentures are all working and stuff because then we'll go out and get a nice dinner.

KG: Okay, yeah, but, you know. I think we should go out and eat the dinner on me for what you've been sending me.

JS: Are you kidding me? No.

KG: I feel like a leech.

JS: Oh, my God. You're kidding me.

KG: You don't even know me.

JS: I'm the one who calls you all the time. How can you be leeching? I call you all the time. There's no way.

KG: Well, I don't know even when you'd be home, or something, because you're working. And then the time difference, too.

JS: Yeah, one of these days I'm not going to have to work anymore. I'm just going to wrestle all day.

KG: Well, don't think that's easy.

JS: Yeah, it won't be easy, but at least I'll be doing something I like to do.

KG: Because you know when we were in Japan? We worked -- we started at nine and we finished at four.

JS: Wow.

KG: Every day. Only Saturdays we finished at twelve and then we cleaned up the old gym. And Sunday we were off. That was what they had to do, but they were paid by the companies. The company paid me and they were on a thing on the wages to see if they could make it. So, they'd get paid for training. I don't think they gave them millions, but they could manage. You know how it is. Doing three jobs they bunked together. They got a room and they cooked together. You know how they are. In the morning I said, "Be here. We start at nine o'clock." So, they came at nine and I closed the door at quarter to nine.

So, they were banging at the door. They said, "It's not nine o'clock yet." I said, "Yeah, but you cannot be [late]. Nine o'clock on the mats ready. I didn't say you start at nine o'clock."

JS: Right. Don't come in and be getting ready at nine. Be on the mat at nine.

KG: I said, "I want you to be there." I'm here already [Quarter to Eight]. And I think he used to live in [Meguro]. He was about three stations from [Shibuya] or where the gym was. I lived there for about three years. And then I told you about we got that earthquake and earthquake season, right?

JS: No.

KG: My wife said no. The next time is [no]. I'd go with you anywhere, but no more to Japan.

JS: Oh, yeah. You told me that. She was bummed about the earthquakes.

KG: Oh. It was unbelievable. And I'm not, by any means, scared, but I'm not happy either.

JS: Yeah, it's weird.

[End]